Going Raw

[angelbears]

After researching about yeast I've decided going raw is the best way to eliminate it.

I am very uncomfortable with this for 3 reasons.

1. I have been told all my life(a very long time) to never give bones.

2. Salmonella and other food poisons

3. Expense. I just went to a raw food store and 5 lb. chubs ranged from 15.00 to 25.00 and Cane should have about 3 pounds a day.

Any thoughts?

Robin & Cane

[de la Luna]

Robin,

We process once a month for the whole month and freeze immediately. We 'chub' meals, and de-thaw just previous to the given meal. Hot water and soap after each meal ALWAYS. Grinding bones still gives them the material without the fear I have of hurt.

http://www.delalunakennel.com/inform...-what-we-feed/

WalMart, the local farmer's market, Cabela's Take a look and anything I can input on trial and error might help. Went through a LOT of trial and error

Food poisoning is huge in my mind. Gimmee a call and I can describe my neurosis.

The commercial items worked just as well, but at a monumental cost for us too!

Best,

[Paul]

Dogs have a digestive juice that kills Salmonella. That same digestive juice will dissolve bones. Even stuff that smells a bit ripe is fed and I have had zero problems. Cost is an issue with me because I have so many dogs to feed. I found a local grocery store that has been around for 50 years and they cater to the migrant workers and people on a budget. They have really good prices on meat. Some friends of mine get meat from a butcher in bulk and others I know get it from the suppliers of rest. I had great fear when I changed to feeding dogs those bones and now can say it is ok. I keep it simple. Leg quarters, chicken backs, organ meat, turkey necks, etc.... If you are really afraid then start off with some chicken necks. For a puppy try 3 or 4 with kibble for an adult try 5 or 6 and when your dog goes number 2 you will see no signs of bones. Saw Dust is great but hard to get. That is the stuff that comes off the blades while they are cutting meat and bone. When I get home I will line up the dog bowls and grab a 10lbs bag of leg quarters and my hands will get dirty. I wash then twice when I am done and I have yet to get salmonella. If you want I can post some pictures of my dogs eating those leg quarters to set your mind at ease? I have to admit I was afraid to give stuff that large and I made the breeder stand there when I dished out my first leg quarters. Leg quarters cost me fifty cents a pound.

[angelbears]

Thank you both, Dianna and Paul.

Yes, Paul. Please post the pics of your dogs eating the chicken. That would be great!

Quick question. I just saw that one of our local stores carries chicken feet, should I? I think it would be so much fun.

[feddoc1]

That same digestive juice mixture also kills e-coli. Here is an interesting link on feeding raw foods. http://www.ehow.com/how_4746472_feed...iet-cheap.html

I have never run across a vet who discourages raw feeding. Maybe because I have been fortunate enough to live in rural areas where it seems to be a more common practice.

[de la Luna]

Great article feddoc1. Good info I agree with and utilize most of myself.

I love my vet hospital and their docs. They know we feed raw, some of the docs say they feel we should do kibble instead, some say our dogs appear great. The one thing that my most favorite in the group says stands firm in my head. "While they do great on the diet that is great, but if something goes wrong, it will go wrong fast and badly...so stay on top of it and watch for any issues."

I wish there was more empirical material supplied to vets. It might help with a multitude of issues that medicine alone can't handle.

Best,

[angelbears]

Feddoc1, thanks for the link. Every bit of information adds to our understanding, the raw feeding.

Dianna and Feddoc1, we were at our vet yesterday. She was okay with raw but she wasn't happy with bones and that we're not going to be giving Cane veggies, at least not very much, less than 6%. I was very proud of Cane at the vets. He is calming down a little bit and I think he is even beginning to trust my judgement. Thank you Dianna for some coaching over the phone.

SICKO ALERT!

Having a blast feeding Cane and Jezzy chicken feet.

[Paul]

OK, technically salmonella can be on raw chicken and dogs can poop it out the other end. Dogs digestive tracks are so short that the bad stuff has no chance to stew and cause problems. Also the digestive juice is so strong it usually kills it off. A friend of mine just attented a seminar on dog nutrition and here is an update I copied from another forum, therealboerboel.

As promised, I took some notes from the Dr. Doug Knueven seminar on Natural Nutrition for Dogs and Cats. Dr. Doug graduated from Ohio State University with his degree in veterinary medicine in 1987. In addition, he has earned certification in veterinary acupuncture, Chinese herbal medicine and chiropractic. He also has advanced training in natural nutrition, massage therapy and homeopathy. Doug has been practicing alternative veterinary medicine since 1993. He lectures on the subject at veterinary conferences around the country. He has written two books on the subject; Stand by Me: A Holistic Handbook for Animals, Their People and the Lives They Share Together, and The Holistic Health Guide: Natural Care for the Whole Dog.



The main thing I got from this seminar was to confirm some things that many of us already know -- that vet schools don't focus on nutrition and that the big pet food manufacturers subsidize and sponsor most of the veterinary schools. Dr. Doug said that during his education at vet school, he received a total of one (1) hour of instruction in nutrition, and it was sponsored by Hills (Science Diet).



Dr. Doug is very against feeding dogs starch, which is the basis for all commercial dry pet foods. Even grain-free kibble has carbs and starch to hold it together. Dr. Doug made this comparision:



* Hills dry dog food is made up of 40% - 50'5 carbs

* A natural diet has 2% - 14% carbs



Dr. Doug said that "There is no known minimum for dietary carbs". Carbs hold the kibble together, and it's cheap for the manufacturers. Carbs are a cheap source of calories.



Dr. Doug went on to explain some other horrors of feeding commercial kibble dog food. I won't go into the details right now, but if anyone is interested I can elaborate. We saw a short video clip from 1997 that featured Dr. Hersch Pendell, the then President of AAFCO (Association of American Feed Control Officials). In the video clip, the reporter asked Dr. Pendell what was meant by the term "meat and bone meal" that is commonly seen in the ingredient list on a bag of commercial dry dog food. Dr. Pendell answered, "Meat and bone meal may be cattle, sheep, horse or Fluffy." He actually stated that on the video clip!



Dr. Weston Price was quoted to say, "Health problems developed in epidemic proportions when people moved to processed food." For this reason, Dr. Doug believes we should mimic Mother Nature as much as possible. Even if a pet owner can't feed a raw diet, just adding whole foods to the diet is beneficial. I forgot to ask him about the notion that one should never mix kibble with whole food because of the different digestion rates.



Dr. Doug recommends feeding a natural diet that consists of: Meat (raw, bones, organs and shredded veggies. He prefers a small amount of veggies (10% or less) rather than fruits because of the high sugar content in most fruit. Stay away from grapes obviously. For leafy greens, he liked spinach and/or kale, and he also recommends yellow/orange veggies like pumpkin and carrots. He recommended making a veggie mush in your food processor because dogs cannot digest whole veggies.



I asked Dr. Doug about some of our concerns about our large dogs breaking bones into sharp shards. Doug said that there some risks, but that he felt the risks were low. He said one of his patient's dogs choked to death on a chicken neck. He also said that some dogs have been known to break a tooth on beef marrow bones, but that he felt the risk was low. Using a commercially prepared raw diet is a way to avoid the risks of bones (bones are ground into the mix). When I pressed him, he said that he feeds his dogs whole foods and doesn't worry about the bones, even chicken leg quarters. He said he prefers to feed chicken necks and/or chicken backs because they are made up of a lot of small bones. For a commercially prepared raw diet, he liked Nature's Variety because it is a pressure-pasteurized raw diet. He said that for owners who were squeamish about feeding bones to their dogs because of the risk, he would recommend the commercial raw diet.



When I told him about Gage's experience, he had good things to say about the surgeon. He said most surgeons would automatically blame the owner and the diet. He said that it was a possibility that the tear could have been caused by a bone shard, but that it could also have been caused from the perforated ulcer. He did not recommend going back to kibble for this dog -- he said to go to a raw diet like one provided by Nature's Variety is what he would recommend.



He also recommends 5 supplements, but the 2 he recommended most highly were fish oil and Glucosamine/Chondroitin. He said he recommends starting dogs/puppies of all sizes on Glucosamine/Chondroitin when they are around one year old. For Glucosamine/Chondroitin, he highly recommends Glyco-Flex. For fish oil, he used to recommend Grizzly Salmon Oil, but now he prefers Canine Omega 3 in a glass bottle. Some of the salmon oils come in a plastic bottle and he prefers glass bottles. He also doesn't recommend using a pump bottle for fish oil -- that the pump brings air into the oil and helps to make it rancid. Canine Omega 3 is in a plain glass bottle where you pour the oil out instead of using a pump.

[Paul]

I posted an article by this same vet on my blog. I tried to post it here and it was to large.
http://boerboelgarth.blogspot.com/

I like what I am reading and I already got some probiotics for my dogs at the health food store today.

[Paul]

I took a video of my girl with the smallest head eating her raw but I can't post it here without putting it on some other site first. Eh, sorry. I tried. I'll put it on my blog.

I've been busy and not online lately. A bit of rescue work and taxes. Sorry for the delay in responding. I do hope the articles by this vet help. I know I learned some stuff.