question about "bezerk" mode ....

[fj45lvr]

we have 3 dogs, one of which is young fila male (now 11 months)...got a question about behavior when a stranger approaches home or automobile.

if he is in our car or truck and someone approaches the vehicle he goes bezerk and in this state he will often end up attacking other dogs or myself or wife (seems as if he gets so pissed he wants to attack something and because he can't get the stranger he moves on to the next closest victim). is this a common characteristic? and what do people recommend to do to stop the aggression to other dogs and owner/family???

thanks

[fj45lvr]

need to clarify that he generally bites a dog or us once (and it can start a fight with other dogs then that carries on)...with us I think it is more that we are in his way and it is somewhat accidental as he gets reprimanded but with all his juices flowing it is hard to say whether the verbal reprimand does anything at all. On leash if someone approaches and I cannot divert off to the side he wants to get out in front and straining on harness if I try to pull him back close to me with a hand he did happen to nail me on the leg once. I just have no idea whether this type of reaction is typical or atypical or what should be done to correct it as it really upsets my wife, I suppose I would be better suited to get a utility vehicle to have a caged area in back to keep him segregated. at home I am not anticipating any more problems because we are fencing in a large area with an entrance gate so a stranger can not approach to the door of the house any longer (which is good because I am surprised my old single pane picture windows haven't collapsed.

[Paul]

It is bad enough he redirects on the other dogs but to do this with you and your wife is not good at all. I do not believe this is normal behavior. Not even my Fila rescue would do this to me. I don't like what I am reading and I think some other Fila people should speak up about this. I don't want to be the bearer of bad news but it doesn't sound good to me.

[fj45lvr]

thanks, for reply. Yeah, without a history of being around fila, things like this are head scratchers as to whether this is considered "standard" behavior. Just so we are clear, he doesn't go out of his way to re-direct to the dogs or us but at the time that he is in "attack" mode the other dogs and us are right there next to him, the other dogs are barking next to him and we are normally trying to grab ahold of his collar to hold him back from smashing the window glass. this has happened 2 times in car, 1 or 2 times at home and once while on leash. He can be around strange dogs and shows no agression at all, but not any strange people (people that come up to a close proximity really cause him to explode into this aggressive state. he was with us during christmas tree sales inside a building with clear plexiglass windows that were very low to ground and he only watched people until they came in closer than 10 or 15 feet and then he explodes. His only other sign of aggression has been fights with what was our alpha dog (8 yr old dachshund/pit bull mix) over high quality food and he doesn't instigate it but doesn't back down if and when the dachshund snaps at him and they fight (the young fila dominates him if they fight)....we have another female fila that has also fought with the dachshund too when he tried to bully her and she was around 11 months old, but since this male pup came around the female and dachshund no longer fight, now the fight is between the neutered dachshund (old alpha) and the male un-altered young fila. the young male does try to mount the female and bites her neck and she snaps at him but they don't ever all-out fight (until this incidence with a stranger approaching and they are both barking and he re-directed on her and she resisted) .

in my mind (not at all experienced with dog training or fila) I figure the fence will alleviate the issue as far as the home and a cage for vehicle transport should be a priority. (this would not be breaking the behavior but just prevention from it happening the way it has these few times).... OR to prevent this? a shock collar to zap him if he re-directs? or should the dogs be able to be trained to sit even though a stranger is approaching or they hear a car, or knock on door or doorbell??

[chocolatemoose]

I would have to agree with Paul, it's not a normal behavior for a Fila with it's family.

[Brasileirokid]

This is not only NOT normal but very dangerous. The redirecting at other dogs is pretty bad and the redirecting to its owners is completely unacceptable. The dog going nuts when someone walks by is normal and regular desensitization would work on a stable dog. unfortunately I cant give you any advice on how to correct this or even if it is correctable. Robert on here might be able to give some advice on that or contact the breeder and see what you guys can work out, I am sure he/she would like to be aware of this as well.

[aceoutdoor]

I have seen working dogs(not filas) who are being teased, but unable to get to the agitator because of a fence etc get so worked up they will bite(not fight) a member of their dog pack. Its kind of like a combination of getting their pack member worked up and releasing some frustration of not being able to get to the agitator. Now taking that out on a human member of the family, downright unacceptable and as juan said dangerous. If a dog bit myself or a family member out of anger, he would be taking a dirt nap. Do you have kids? If so that would seal the deal.

[aceoutdoor]

What age was the puppy when you got him?

[girldogue]

I would have to agree with Juan - redirection to his owners is completely unacceptable and not normal in this breed. If it were my dog he would be getting ALOT of on lead training and socialization to work on him away from the others. Also - why are you using a harness on him ? He needs a stout good quality choke chain ( Herm Sprengers are the best IMO) and you need to learn to use it - harnesses give no control .

[fj45lvr]

wow, thanks for replies I guess I have to focus on this more then as a potentially very serious issue, if anything can be done about it. I got the dog at 4.5 months and while he was reluctant to come out of his crate when he first saw us (freaked out from airplane ride) after he did come out he took to us right away and has never been aggressive towards us in any way except this anger with a stranger getting close. I initially took him around public on a leash and sat on a bench outside the small town store till he was about 6.5 months but eventually quit as he came into his temperament, he would be fine with people walking nearby and past us but if they stopped and stared at him he was growling and lunging and I had to hold him back which led me to not continue to go sit down there with him because it scared people and it was a concern something could potentially happen to injure someone. I walked him quite abit in california this december and he generally didn't care about people over 20 feet away while enjoying his sniffing unless they got in closer proximity (so I just plain avoided getting close to any person). He does not show any signs of fearing people and I have no doubt that in the open he would be in front of us to protect from a stranger (however it could be the UPS man just as well as a rare threatening person)

thanks for tip on switching to choke collar are they all pronged? we don't have any kids but we do have a grand daughter that periodically stays with us who is one of the few people he accepts other than us, 2 grown daughters and the grand daughter as his only "inner circle" of people he accepts. grand daughter is 3 and does not like getting sniffed or "slobbed" by him and she avoids being in same room as she is short right now.

[aceoutdoor]

If you don't mind me asking a question possibly related to this behavior. Did you purchase this dog from Lions Den? Choke collars are smooth, pinch collars are pronged.

[fj45lvr]

no it was not lions den.

[girldogue]

The choke does not nee to be a prong unless he is not learning even with a choker - I have never had to use a prong collar on my filas - but if he is too strong for you to handle or he is just a butt head then prong it could be... just learn to use a prong versus a choke and make sure the prong collar is fitted snugly - most people tend to keep prongs too loose and that is not how they work.

You need to work on him having manners - there is no reason he needs to be acting a fool with people so far away - there is nothing wrong with alerting on them - but to allow him to do as he pleases ( lunging, etc) when you have asked him to stop means you need to work on your communication /training level with him. He is still a teenager and will get a little better if you continue to work with him - but try to learn his triggers and work with anticipating the bezerk mode so you can stop get a handle on it before he loses focus.





wow, thanks for replies I guess I have to focus on this more then as a potentially very serious issue, if anything can be done about it. I got the dog at 4.5 months and while he was reluctant to come out of his crate when he first saw us (freaked out from airplane ride) after he did come out he took to us right away and has never been aggressive towards us in any way except this anger with a stranger getting close. I initially took him around public on a leash and sat on a bench outside the small town store till he was about 6.5 months but eventually quit as he came into his temperament, he would be fine with people walking nearby and past us but if they stopped and stared at him he was growling and lunging and I had to hold him back which led me to not continue to go sit down there with him because it scared people and it was a concern something could potentially happen to injure someone. I walked him quite abit in california this december and he generally didn't care about people over 20 feet away while enjoying his sniffing unless they got in closer proximity (so I just plain avoided getting close to any person). He does not show any signs of fearing people and I have no doubt that in the open he would be in front of us to protect from a stranger (however it could be the UPS man just as well as a rare threatening person)

thanks for tip on switching to choke collar are they all pronged? we don't have any kids but we do have a grand daughter that periodically stays with us who is one of the few people he accepts other than us, 2 grown daughters and the grand daughter as his only "inner circle" of people he accepts. grand daughter is 3 and does not like getting sniffed or "slobbed" by him and she avoids being in same room as she is short right now.

[Paul]

If training is going to work the timing of your response in order to stop the dog from going off is very important. Leerburg site has a lot of free videos on using and fitting choke and prong collars. I can see a person getting a tooth if you put your hand to close to dogs that are fighting. Dogs that are redirecting could get you the same bite. What I have a problem with is if you have this dog on lead and it redirects at you when going off or redirects at you on purpose. If that is the case I have no good news for you. If you are in a car and the dog is going off and other dogs are there doing the same and you grab the Fila and it gives you a nip well. I don't like it or agree with it but could see it happening. The nip shoud not be on purpose but due to confusion of sorts. It still does not set well with me. I am glad others have said something. I didn't want to be the only one who is not accepting this temp from a Fila. To try and explain this. A police dog in training may redirect at the handler. This happens for real. The dog bites the hell out of the handler. Even certified police dogs do this. Now with a Fila it is not acceptable. Fila are not supposed to do that PERIOD. A Fila that does this is dangerous. So, while the police may allow this kind of temp and use it with a Fila it is nothing but dangerous. No Fila owner should ever fear their dog may bite them unless they are abusing the animal or put your hand into a dog fight. A Fila owner should feel nothing but safety. Hell, I have had Fila that won't even bite down on a treat when I give it to them. They use their lips to take it ever so gentle and I didn't train for that. Yeah, a youngster will rough house with you if you ask for it. They are just as happy being gentle with you. They are not all carbon copies or cookie cutter dogs. There are some that just don't fit what a real Fila should be. Eh, please be careful. Not sure I would allow this dog around my 3 year old. Just saying if the dog is going off and the 3 year old is to close NOT GOOD. Maybe this was all just a bit of a mistake on the dogs part but I would rather be careful than sorry in the emergency room. There are certain things in a Fila that make them just that and putting a tooth on their owners is WAY OFF. When you look at the leerburg site realize it is for working type dogs ie cop dogs. There is a lot of good info on that site but some of it does not apply to a Fila. The collar stuff should be fine. BTW, having a smaller alpha dog and then introducing a larger guardian breed will result in dog fights. That is your fault, not being mean. You can't allow the older, smaller dog to dominate the new puppy ie Fila etc.....this all leads to dog fights. I see this over and over. I just took a dog back in November that killed a fellow pack member a JR and a Rottie. So, not being mean but you set yourself up for the larger and more dominant dog to eventually kick the smaller and older dogs butt when they feel it is time and when they do it can be fatal but either way very expensive. Multiple Fila together would have been easier than Fila with smaller dominant dog in general IMO. I understand how easy it is for people to bring in the larger guard breed and the current smaller type bosses the puppy around. You get that feeling that oh he will never mess with his little buddy and his little buddy won't take shit from him. That all seems like it will work out but it does not. It even seems cute at first but in the end it will be tramatic to the dogs and you. Sorry to sound mean. Not my intent but I have to vent this stuff in hopes that others will hear it. This part of your problem is fresh in my mind because I just had to take a dog back in November. Very nice dog and it was not her fualt but the owners who allowed a Jack Russel to act like a Jack Russel with a larger guardian breed. The JR finally got the worse of it and it was not the first incident or the first time I warned them THAT would happen. Good Luck with your dog and be careful. Don't take risks that you will regret.

[angelbears]

Well said Paul,

I was told before we got a Fila that you could cut their leg off with a butter knife and they would lay there and let you. I have found this to be pretty much true. I have a gobber head male, as stubborn as the day is long but not once have I ever thought he would bite me. Okay, at first I was a little leary but not once has he ever nipped at me. He gets rough but never with his mouth and never in a way that I think as meaness. As a matter of fact and yes, everyone may think this is gross but especially when he was young I would put food in my mouth(hanging out) and let him get it. SO gentle.

I do have a question about our rescue. She is between 3 to 4, we have had her since June. She was found wandering the streets and skin and bones. I think she has fully bonded to us. However, we had our son over to babysit Cane, Ziva was put in her crate and we went to dinner. We are trying to get Ziva to accept Daniel, so when we got home we put Ziva on her leash and Debra brought her into the living room. As soon as she saw Daniel, she went nuts. Barking and lunging. I stepped in front of Daniel but in that moment if she wasn't being held back I'm not sure she would not have gotten me. I'm not sure she even realized it was me. The look on her face was pure evil. Am I expecting to much from her?

Thanks all

[Paul]

She seems to be acting normal because Daniel doesn't live in that house. I assume he does not have the same time spent with Ziva as you and your wife. I am glad Cane is good with Daniel coming over. You are not expecting to much just not something Ziva was born to do. It would take a lot of time with Daniel and Ziva together before Ziva would accept him into the house. What is Cane's reaction when Ziva does this? If Cane is really bonded with Daniel I would say that Cane would protect him from Ziva. It all depends on how deep Daniel's relationship is with Cane and it is obvious he does not have that relationship with Ziva for a reason. I am guessing Daniel has lived with Cane in the past or was around when Cane was a puppy? I guess it could be done but I would take it slow and be very careful. That look you witnessed is fierce. I know from being biten the look in the dogs eyes that is doing it to me. It really puts you off for a bit. I think Ziva was looking through you at that point. If possible Ziva would have gone around you but Ziva is not trained to stop her rage by you just standing in front of her. Also in the house requires no distance for the reaction as compared to out on the street where these dogs have a zone that sets them off. Eh, I have to say thanks for rescuing. They do deserve a good home and they will protect their new owners. How long do you think she was roaming the streets? Dogs do turn on their survival instincts when they are out there like Ziva was. She could have just as easily been starved at a home and escaped for her own good. I had a Fila that would stop as soon as we got to the corner and my house was out of view. He didn't want to have his home out of site. People can really suck and it is a shame these dogs have to suffer. You did good with Ziva. Thanks Again.

[Paul]

Cane is a Fila or is Cane a human kid? OOOPS! or better yet on my part DOH!

[angelbears]

Paul,

It is you that should be thanked. I know all the work you do with rescues. I think you are the greatest and appreciate the time you take on this board to help educate.

If you ask Daniel, Cane is much highter in the pecking order than he is. You were right, Cane is my furbaby. Yes, Daniel has to come and babysit, he gets so upset when we leave I'm afraid he will bloat.

I will try to post a couple of pictures that where taken of her at the pound. I'm sure you have seen much worse but it just made us sick...I must say that she has become a remarkable dog. She had some fears and would back behind us. Now, she is out front and I have no doubt that she would delight in tearing someone apart if she thought they were going to hurt us. NO DOUBT!

Cane is my heartdog, I love that dumb gooberhead more than anything but Ziva, she is my souldog. I look at her and I know I did something right, she just makes me feel good. She trusts and loves even though she had every reason not too. Please anyone out there that is considering a dog, please consider a rescue.